Wednesday, July 18, 2007

Is Kimkins okay because its simply low carb?

I keep seeing Jimmy, Kimmer and some others play the "low carb" card in regards to the Kimkins diet which really annoys me. So what if kimkins is low carb, low carb isn't perfect as like any other diet, it can be abused. I knew a girl who lost a lot of weight on the lettuce diet, should I advocate that too? after all, lettuce is low carb, right?

We actually had a girl join our low carb forum briefly once, she was pro-ana and said that low carb made it easier... You could imagine the shock when one of the ladies decided to find out what pro ana meant and let me know.

Heck, even Atkins can be a problem for some, because sometimes people don't snap out of that low fat mentality they were in previously - powered with the satiating effects of ketosis end up eating similar to kimkins and wind up stalled and rebounding.

But the difference between Atkins and plans like it and Kimkins, is Atkins doesn't encourage abuse of his plan, rather he assumes you will eat enough fat and in fact warns not to do his plan and low fat at the same time, whereas as on kimkins, it would seem that abusive behaviour is the "crust" of her plan.

People say its just her advice and her plans are fine, seriously do you think they are healthy?

A 500 calorie boot camp with daily rigorous cardio is healthy?

800 calorie shake diet, healthy? A shake diet I might add that doesn't even have any standards in place and so can be very dangerous and extremely low in fat, so get ready to kiss your gall bladder goodbye.

I wanted to update that Kimmer has also allegedly advocated a 450 calorie version of her shake plans for fastest results on her forum. This consists of 3 times 150 calorie protein shakes, note I said protein shakes not meal replacement shakes.

The 1000 calorie vegetarian plan? I don't know much about that plan but I have heard about a friend seeing someone posting nicely recommending B12 in the vegetarian forum, as we know this is very important for vegetarians, guess what happened? it was deleted. So how do we know that is healthy and well researched? :rolleyes:

The other two plans that aren't limited in calories... Kimmer is banking on the fact that SNATT (semi nauseas all the time) will bring you down to similar calorie levels to the other plans. I recall her stating herself in the ask kimmer thread that the only reason calories are unlimited is because they will be bought right down to these levels "naturally"

You see this is where low carb can be abused and why Atkins can be unintentionally abused, it is the satiation effect of ketosis which should be a good thing and for most of us it is, well until now....

On top of that, people on the various forums generally don't encourage that kind of behaviour, there will always be heaps of people that will say "you need to eat more" whereas in Kimkins circles it's the opposite. Your encouraged to believe that there is no starvation response and you won't lose muscle after 2 weeks that heck it is safe to water fast for 382 days. And if you say otherwise, if you dare question too much, your post will be deleted making the kimkins forum very biased and one sided.

Then to make matters worse with Kimkins, the big weight loss is emphasised so much more with people complaining if they only lose 10 pounds in a week or because they only lost a quarter of a pound that day. That is a very dangerous mindset to encourage and I was very disappointed to see Jimmy encouraging it too, even more so when he announced he was doing it because as we all know, many would follow.

Having stalls and slow loses at times aren't a bad thing, apart from being safer, its usually then when you learn about your body that little bit more.

*edit* Forgot to add this:

Shouldn't we as a low carb community show some responsibility and principles here and set some kind of standard of what a healthy low carbohydrate diet is?

I can tell you, it is not Kimkins, nor is it the lettuce diet!

Other Kimkins articles by me:

Nov 16: Kimkins Diet Scam
Sept 22: The Low Fat side of the Kimkins Diet: Rabbit Starvation, Sudden Death and Resting Metabolism.
Sept 11: The Low Fat side of the Kimkins Diet: Gallstones.
Aug 17: My reply to Deni
Aug 13: The low fat side of the Kimkins Diet, Part 1
July 15: Kimkins and Kimmer
June 13: Okay Some Kimkins Stuff...


Unknown said...

I'm not on the Kimkins diet, and I honestly don't think I could hack the low fat aspect. And SNATT sounds no fun at all.

However, do you think it's possible to watch calories AND carbs as part of a healthy weight loss phase of a diet?

I know that once I'm within circling range of my goal weight, I have to pay attention to calories more. This seems to be a common experience among low carbers. And the easiest way to watch calories is to cut down on the fat a bit.

Don't get me wrong, I would never advocate a diet that's consistently less than 1000 calories a day as a healthy program. I think it'd send people nutso too quickly.

However, lower fat in combination with low carb doesn't seem like a problem to me.

PJ said...

Although I think low-everything (cals, carbs, fat) is not healthy for most people, there are occasionally people who actually need to do that, who are insanely insulin resistant. This is, though, applying "a drastic solution for those with a specific body problem" to everyone, including those who don't have that problem, for whom it's more harm than help.

I don't have any problem with controlling for calories as well as carbs, but 'controlling' means, keeping it within a few hundred calories of one's activity BMR, not keeping it at near or total starvation levels.

As for JM, I give up. The reality is it's making him a ton of money and nothing and nobody is going to interfere with that, and he seems to have decided he is a celebrity beyond reproach, so any hope for a sanity-check is starting to seem like wasted optimism.

Many things (including your lettuce diet example) are lowcarb. No, I don't think that makes them ok by nature. The debates with Kimkins are several and, given the hype-cult mentality of the social starvation club, I think the association with Atkins is misleading, unfair to atkins, and dangerous to the reputation of the larger lowcarb world.

Unknown said...

I don't like how she is always bringing up the fact that people who have had WLS live on 400---800 cals a day. Yeah in the beginning---most only get that much in---but it is not recommended. Most of the long term research says no less than 1000/day.

As for whether Kimkins is healthy---that is a resounding NO. It is just another gimmick. If a low carb, hunter/gather, paleo diet is followed correctly---there isno need to count calories. By limiting your calories, you only set yourself up for a big regain when you do allow yourself to eat right.

Personally, JM's weight gain was because of all the "low carb junk" he eats. all that processed food products are his down fall.
Just stick with real food. If you can't eat it raw---yeah I know we don't eat raw meat but we could if we wanted to and it would not harm us. But things like potatoes, rice and all the grains are poison to our bodies if taken in the raw state.

I agree with you Sherri---the low carb community does NOT need to be promoting Kimkins as low carb. It is just like any other low cal diet---no good and dangerous. Period.

Sue said...

"However, lower fat in combination with low carb doesn't seem like a problem to me". Kate

I agree with that statement but not when you are talking about kimkins. The calories are consistently way under 1000 calories and that is definitely not healthy. A little tweak of the calories is okay but not such a drastic one!! Fat phobia on such a level should not be associated with low carb.

Unknown said...

Hello Kate :)

Yes definitely, the majority of people will have to watch calories, particularly when close to goal.

But you do have to be careful, when things got tough for me, I stuck to 1500 calories. That was just over my BMR (when I started counting I was around 60 or 62kg at the time trying to get down to 55kg). Thats a pretty good limit, I still hit over 100g in both fat and protein. But, it still knocked me around, I was doing resistance training so I figure I needed more to fuel that.

In the back of my mind I knew I needed to up my calories but I was so scared to. When it starts to get on top of you, you start to lose your oomph. Motivation goes, your weights start decreasing but in my head it was like ack I'm lazy I'm not doing enough, I'm not pushing myself because once your oomph goes thats exactly how it feels. There was a huge pressure for me to push myself more, I used to read some
BB boards as well as low carb ones and all the beautiful bodies, though inspiring would put huge amounts of pressure on you as well. But we need to remember, they only diet for a max of 12 weeks for a reason.

I did reach my goal but in the end I was told I had CFS and a goiter. I don't think I had CFS, I just think I was a bit of a hormonal mess which I don't think I've fully recovered from though much better.

Granted I was well within a healthy weight range and slim by the time I reached goal, I wasn't fat anymore but 500 calories and intense cardio. I can't see how even an obese body would tolerate that for too long before making a fuss and nutritionally theres just no way everything your going to need is going to be there.

Unknown said...

Hey PJ

I agree :)

And I will even go so far as to say that in some situations a VLCD diet may become necessary under medical supervision.

But just because there is a real need for it in some situations does not make it a diet to be touted off as healthy by people with no medical backgrounded and promoted so heavily, even to teenagers. My gosh!

In my opinion it is not a low carb diet it is a very low calorie diet.

As far as how both her and Jimmy keep relating that diet to Atkins. Over a month a go now I sent of a bunch of emails to anyone I could find an email address for. Low carb researchers as well as people worked a long side Dr Atkins. I gave this diet every chance to prove my feelings on this wrong. Granted I didn't hear back from everyone but not one was able to tell me this diet was fine. Dr Groves, (hes a funny bloke, I like him) he was the one who reminded me about steffanson and the rabbit diet and he told me about this group who believed they could live off the sun alone, crazy...

But getting back to my point regarding Atkins, I emailed doctors who worked with Dr Atkins because I noticed affiliates for kimkins (one was Christin I think) quoting bits from the DANDR to try and state that kimkins is okay plus Kimmer always referred to bits from DANDR as well.

Well I heard back from Dr Salerno and with his permission, I quote:

"You are absolutely correct.

The kimkins is not at all what Dr. Atkins preached and its fat restriction is down right dangerous."

Unknown said...

Hey BG :)

If anyone knows about WLS, its you. I was pulling up research on WLS (I should get back to that) and there is a lot of problems related to diet afterwards so I don't understand how they could keep using that.

I should also mention my best friends sister had a lap band many years ago. It worked, in fact it worked too well!

She went from being obese to being anorexic. When I was in hospital having my daughter, she was in the same hospital due to being so malnourished. Later they took the band out, so lucky for her she didn't have something more permenant done.

Unknown said...

Hey Sure :)

couldn't agree more!

Jamie said...

You said, "Shouldn't we as a low carb community show some responsibility and principles here and set some kind of standard of what a healthy low carbohydrate diet is?"

And to this I answer 'absolutely'! I understand that people are going to do what works for them.

Responsibility comes in when there is the very real (I'm sure) temptation to market an individual's success as the saving grace to a world of folks with enlarged butt cheeks.

The problem is sometimes the slimming of the cheeks is more dangerous than the cheeks themselves.

Low-low calories on a low-carbohydrate plan is not feasible unless a physician is very closely monitoring the patient in a medical setting.

I could tell people to lick frozen flagpoles to lose weight, but there'd be a lot of really angry people with cold tongues out to get me.

There has to be culpability.

Unknown said...

"There has to be culpability."

You better believe it!!! nicely said

Another concern about the lack of fat---what about about all the fat soluble vitamins as well as the essential fatty acids---

it may take time---but just wait for the lawsuits.

Alcinda (Cindy) Moore said...

"your post will be deleted" we have some nameless, faceless, person promoting an extremely low calorie diet, and now you're saying that if you disagree your posts are deleted!!!!!

I'm sorry, but I just don't get it. People are so desperate that they will follow something like this?

Initially all I knew about kimkins was that it was low fat. For me that was not what I wanted. One of the things I like about low carb is being able to eat the fatty versions of foods!! Real meat, cheese, etc is what makes it all tolerable!!

Several people have mentioned that as they get closer to goal they find they must cut their calories? Well sure, of course you do. As you progress closer to goal you are supposed to up your carbs and lower your fat! Dr Atkins said that many times!!

I know myself if I keep my carbs very low, like under 30g a day I can eat 1600 - 1800 calories and loose. But if they creep up to the 60 -70 gram range, I have to cut back to about 1200 - 1300 calories. I have done this several times when I started getting bored and figured it was better to up my carbs a bit than to fall off completely.

Thank you for posting this....if I had any question about whether this was a plan for me, or if it was healthy, you certainly have set me straight!!

Unknown said...

Hello Cleochatra :)

I am seeing you every where today!

Couldn't agree more!

Hey BG :)

Fat is so important for so many reasons, apparently there are some just eating egg whites!

Hey Cindy :)

She sure does. I can't say I have seen it with my own eyes because I refuse to support such a thing which ultimately is what signing up does... But I have heard from others who are totally seperate from LCF etc so have no conflicting interests that this indeed happens and not just recently either.

It gets worse now though, shes even banning people for questioning her pics in private PMs that were not her business reading. During some recent downtimes for maintenance she did a real spring clean, apparently even going so far as to delete old PMs where she gave dangerous advice from other peoples PM boxes...

Your welcome Cindy :)

I have been freely giving my opinions on this diet on mine and Daves forum for ages now but once Jimmy announced he was doing it too then I thought time to say something here.

Daron said...

I've not mentioned Kimkims on my blog.... I'm trying my best to stay out of the hype as no publicity is bad publicity. No matter what you say against it, somebody will read it and be desperate enough to try.

I do not like calling Kimkims a low-carb diet. If you reduce carbs and reduce fat, you are basically just reducing calories in general.... There is nothing new here other than the that she advocates reducing calories to an anorexic level.

But, I'm not a dietitian and do not claim to be an expert. What I know about dieting is that there seems to be little agreement from "experts".

What I am about to say about Jimmy Moore is my gut feeling and I don't know for sure...

It appears that he (Jimmy) is likely getting paid for most of his posts. It's a business. Therefore, I question the sincerity of his comments. I always feel that there is a financial reason why he is taking a stance on most issues. It also seems that everything is a bit sensationalized. I'm not sure what Jimmy does for a living besides being a low-carb "expert" but I suspect it is in advertising or marketing.

He has a big ego, and rightly so... there are many followers out there. Just look at how the Kimkims membership has jumped up since Jimmy came on board. And, it is this power that makes him dangerous. If Kimkims turns out to be unhealthy or life threatening then he would be putting thousands of people at risk.

Unknown said...

That blog is his job, he lost or left his job late last year. Hes pretty much a business partner of kimkins getting 40% for his membership referrals and 15% for affiliate referrals or something like that. Plus now that they just upped it again to $60 membership and with all this extra publicity from the magazine and his blog he is laughing all the way to the bank.

Regarding him increasing the numbers and no publicity = bad publicity. Thats the thing there is no such thing as no publicity because they are making damn sure to get it, Jimmy won't shut up about it and they are spamming success story sites etc... like no-ones business.

I know what you are getting at and thats what I was thinking too for ages but then I realised how one sided it is becoming. Example, say 2 months ago a kimkins bashing thread on my forum (Kimkins) would come up for me, on the first page of google which I thought was real funny at the time, but now it is totally buried. For pages and pages all you see are these success stories and affiliates. Anyone doing a search on kimkins gets totally biased information saying how great it is and thats it.

Then you have Jimmy, how many people totally trust him and treat his words like gospel? Surely hes got to be held accountable and take some responsibility for what he spins on his blog which will never happen if no-one questions him.

Unknown said...

Hey Sherri---have you seen how someone has set up Kimkins in wikipedia for delete---it is negative---so does someone want it out of there---hmmmm---the plot thickens

Unknown said...

check this out:

Slamboard » Blog Archive » Part I - The Business Partnership Case Study

Unknown said...

Yeah I have seen them. I hope it doesn't get deleted, kimkins and jimmy moore are really ruling the search engines atm and I think we need to get more balanced stuff into the first few pages of google.

. said...

Sherri, did you see he mentioned your blog in his apology today? I'm glad he finally understands the importance of health vs. fast weight loss!

Unknown said...

Hey Regina :)

I am still trying to catch up on all these new happenings today LOL This all started when I was asleep last night and then today I have been out all day.

LC_Dave told me about it and showed me Jimmy's post. I think its really cool he mentioned me hehe but even cooler is his post, I am so relieved as he can be a great asset to the low carb community.

I still have a bee in my bonnet as far as kimkins goes though and I still want to keep some balance in the search engines.

I am so glad Jimmy got off that train.

Kat said...

Friends don't let friends do Kimkins! Remember that cover girl on the WW Mag? Well, she learned the hard way about Kimkins and it's dangers!! Read her blog and decide for yourself.

Kat said...

Friends don't let friends do Kimkins! Remember that cover girl on the WW Mag? Well, she learned the hard way about Kimkins and it's dangers!! Read her blog and decide for yourself.

Kat said...

Now that you know the Truth...Join the Lawsuit!!

wackytobeme said...

Thanks for standing up for the truth
[url=]Did you join Kimkins?[/url]

Kat said...

This is one of the key players in the fight against Kimkins and I think you should read her blog...don't foget to search the webring too and see the other great info about this SCAM!

Kat said...

The "Time Worstall Tabloid Edition" says:

November 12, 2007
Kimkins, or the Kimkins diet has been shown up to be just another scam on the unsuspecting.

Heidi "Kimmer" Diaz, the founder of the Kimkin's diet - a low carb, low calorie diet - is schedule to appear in a Southern California court on Monday, November 12th, 2007. 11 former users of her Kimkins diet program filed a complaint against her one week ago, claiming fraud, false advertising, and unjust enrichment.
The Kimkin's scandal began when Woman's World, a popular women's magazine featured an article on the Kimkin's diet.

Ms Diaz, who was claiming to have lost 198 pounds in 11 months using her diet plan, refused to meet with the magazine in person, instead corresponding through email. She went so far as to send the magazine before and after pictures that looked nothing alike, which makes sense when people found out that the before pictures were Ms. Diaz, however the after pictures were taken from a Russian 'mail-order' bride web site.

The kimkins diet advised eating just 500 calories a day. That less than concentration camp victims were getting:

Kimkins diet followers reported hair loss, menstrual cessation, irregualr heartbeat, fainting spells, and liver damage from the starvation diet scam.

No damn wonder! Let's hope she's jailed where she can get a decent diet!

Kat said...

Happy 2008 All...Don't become a stastic of the Kimkins Diet Scam in 2008. I have faith in people and I know that there are a lot of people out there that will do the research and find the horrors of the Kimkins diet, the bannings of "lifetime" members for no reason other than to take their money from them, the no feedback from Kimmer herself on the site as promised and the dangers of the starvation diet that Kimmer (Heidi K. Diaz), who never even lost the weight herself, promotes. Ban Kimkins in 2008 and find a free and safe diet site to support your weight loss efforts in 2008. The year you will succeed WITHOUT Kimkins starvation diet!

Kat said...

New Year’s Resolutions….
When the New Year comes upon us, those of us with excess weight, start to think of a way to try to get off our excess weight, one more time. If you are computer savvy, you start searching for a fast and easy weight loss plan. Recently, the Kimkins.comdiet has come into the lime light as being a fast and easy diet. Don’t be fooled. Do your research! Kimkins.con is nothing more than a low fat, low carb, low calorie, unhealthy starvation diet that is causing Eating Disorders (EDs) in many. This diet was started by a lady who calls herself "Kimmer" and never even lost the weight herself on her own diet. Kimmer even charges $59.95 for her unhealthy starvation diet and offers a “lifetime” membership that gets you banned from her website with no recourse if you question her about her diet or after pictures. There are a lot of good Low Carb diets on the market that are a healthy way of eating that you can get for free on different websites along with the community support you need. Try them first and see how much better you feel losing your weight in 2008!!

Kat said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Usagi Tsukino said...

As far as I can tell, the pro-ana girl on your forum was basically doing kimkins! It's basically pro-ana, except low-carb and she makes money off of it.

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